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juicysquash

Shark to strong?

106 posts in this topic

This was brought up in our local meta this past weekend after some unpleasant games vs shark. 

Some say he is so predicable that the game vs him is unfun, boring and if you are not prepared to stop it you just auto lose, so my question is has shark become to over the top in S3? Have all his scary counters been taken care of that nothing can touch the hair? My initial reaction is NO and he is just another captain you need to learn to play against but after watching a few games of him, being on the receiving side of gross 12-0 loses to him and seeing the success of him at LVO, it has made me wonder his he to strong? Has the meta shifted to to much of a goal threat game and it brings down the other factions? Or have people just not adapted to that style of game play and we need to give it some time in S3 for players to adjust there play style so they will know how to shut down shark easily.

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There is a great thread on the 3-0 meta that covers this. I'm a Union guy and I'm running BH for 3-0 wins and I've been doing well.

One thing I've noticed from combat focused teams is they don't account for the opponent's path to 12 or the the goal. I routinely find easy paths to the goal left wide open. Shooting lanes have to be covered. I've also been asking advantage of tackles to prevent ball killing which my opponents don't realize I have.

To out play Shark, you have to prevent his path to 12. He's probably one of the strongest captains and possibly a bit OP. Neutralize his win chances first and loom for your VPs second. Otherwise he will run away with it.

 

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1 minute ago, riffbw said:

There is a great thread on the 3-0 meta that covers this. I'm a Union guy and I'm running BH for 3-0 wins and I've been doing well.

One thing I've noticed from combat focused teams is they don't account for the opponent's path to 12 or the the goal. I routinely find easy paths to the goal left wide open. Shooting lanes have to be covered. I've also been asking advantage of tackles to prevent ball killing which my opponents don't realize I have.

To out play Shark, you have to prevent his path to 12. He's probably one of the strongest captains and possibly a bit OP. Neutralize his win chances first and loom for your VPs second. Otherwise he will run away with it.

 

Ill check out at that thread, combat teams defiantly have a problem blocking those shooting path they are just so spread out 

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28 minutes ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

Corsair is being played more than Shark in S3, 

where is that data? Black orifice?

because if that is true that gives me hope 

 

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2 hours ago, juicysquash said:

where is that data? Black orifice?

because if that is true that gives me hope 

 

I would be interested to see the UK/US breakdown on this. We're seeing a ton of Shark here on the East Coast.

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9 minutes ago, Maurice said:

I would be interested to see the UK/US breakdown on this. We're seeing a ton of Shark here on the East Coast.

Same in the Midwest. Seeing quite a bit of Shark.

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2 hours ago, Maurice said:

I would be interested to see the UK/US breakdown on this. We're seeing a ton of Shark here on the East Coast.

I would say I have so far seen more Corsair being played than Shark in the UK, but I did play against Shark in the finals yesterday, so he's definitely seeing some play...

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Oddly I've not noticed to much up take in the Fish around these parts. My main gaming buddy uses Shark though, and his opinion is that while perma Homecrowd Crowd and Tap In help, overall it's become harder because all the other teams are generally stronger footballers.

I don't think they are op, I think it's just right now they are played by people who would win with any team.

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Before the LVO Shark-a-thon, I didn't think Shark was that OP (I still don't).  Most Fish players (including myself) in our area plays Corsair because he can kill, score and deny.  Shark is pretty linear with 3 goals, and often missing a goal makes it an uphill battle.  Then again, none of us are Jordan so we're probably not unlocking the full potential of Shark. :)

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5 hours ago, Maurice said:

I would be interested to see the UK/US breakdown on this. We're seeing a ton of Shark here on the East Coast.

You the same Maurice that frequents DW? Because if so, now I feel reeeeeaaally bad for starting the game with Shark :D

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17 minutes ago, TehMik said:

You the same Maurice that frequents DW? Because if so, now I feel reeeeeaaally bad for starting the game with Shark :D

There can be only one Maurice!

 

Shark is a strong Captain, but that's because he's very focused on scoring. If you can slow him down, or engage him enough that he can't get the ball easily enough, then his inertia stalls out. 

S3 has really brought scoring goals to the forefront of the game, and people will learn how to better protect the ball and deny easy shots as time goes on. 

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Shark is strong, as are the fish in general. I would not call them OP. They really benefit from the home crowd and tap in changes, and with  those changes and some of the changes to other top performing s2 models the game has shifted more to a scoring focused game. 

Shark is also particularly good at rolling over less and moderately experienced players who likely don't have a full understanding of his threat/lockdown potential and are not prepared to deal with what he does. This makes him a great pick for a tournament setting, as it helps get through initial rounds easily, and once you match up against more experienced/"better" opponents, there is still an incredibly dynamic game to play. 

At Captaincon, of 8 out of 27 players that qualified for the Championship, there were 3 fish players (2 alchemists, 1 engineers, 1 union, 1 brewers). All three fish players lost their first round in the top 8 (and none were playing against one another). So while fish certainly were prevalent, and performed well, they did not dominate the meta at the event. 

 

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2 hours ago, dtjunkie19 said:


Shark is also particularly good at rolling over less and moderately experienced players who likely don't have a full understanding of his threat/lockdown potential and are not prepared to deal with what he does. This makes him a great pick for a tournament setting, as it helps get through initial rounds easily, and once you match up against more experienced/"better" opponents, there is still an incredibly dynamic game to play. 
 

This is a very good point actually - Shark can certainly seem overwhelming to less experienced players, simply because his ideal game is one where his opponent doesn't get to put their game plan into action at all, as he's so fast and disruptive, they've never even got going. In my very first Season 1 tournament game, I beat a Brewer's player 12 - 0 on my second activation in turn 2... With experience, there are ways to stop him just running roughshod over you, which can make him seem a little less daunting, but in the hands of a skilled player, he can still deliver. 

I wouldn't say he was too strong though - he really only does one thing really well - he's incredible powerful at it, but it's possible for other teams to slow the game down to the point that Shark runs out of steam a bit...

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Funny enough, the local Fish player always says Fish are underpowered.  But he likes to try making them beat people up rather than score.  

 

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One thing you have to bear in mind with Shark is that by playing him, you're sacrificing one of the game's two win conditions. He's real good at getting goals, but he NEEDS to get 3 goals to win (barring some corner case scenarios). He's also a strong early game captain, he wants to win the game before the opponent can get his plan going; I tend to find turn 3 is the tipping point at which Shark's game starts to suffer, i.e. when the damage Shark's team is taking starts to mount up to the point he starts losing models. 

I would echo that in the UK, you see a LOT more Corsair than Shark. I would guess that's primarily cause Corsair CAN get 2 takeouts, where Shark generally can't. Although possibly S3 has switched that up a bit, I haven't managed to get to any events recently to see. 

 

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Depends on your opponent/team you are facing.

With Fish vs Engineers/Hunters who are letting the ball die in a corner/out of range I wish you all the best :P

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I don't personally think he's too strong, but I may be biased as that's who I've been playing since summer when I got bored of Corsair, who I think is generally better, and got the KS sculpt. I do think Shark stomps new players though, often coming down to how the opponent deals with the kick back in. 

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If you get hit by Caught in a Net badly (and with an 8 inch pulse that's most of the time!), followed by Gut and String on key players, it can turn into a bit of a negative play experience, but you've just got to ride it out. The placement of your kick out after he scores is incredibly important and of course, take him out if you can!

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It may as well be a high learning curve to deal with shark, agreed the kick out is extremely important and denying him the second goal I believe is a big tipping point to weather or not he wins 

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5 hours ago, TheLieutenant said:

One thing you have to bear in mind with Shark is that by playing him, you're sacrificing one of the game's two win conditions. He's real good at getting goals, but he NEEDS to get 3 goals to win (barring some corner case scenarios). He's also a strong early game captain, he wants to win the game before the opponent can get his plan going; I tend to find turn 3 is the tipping point at which Shark's game starts to suffer, i.e. when the damage Shark's team is taking starts to mount up to the point he starts losing models. 

I would echo that in the UK, you see a LOT more Corsair than Shark. I would guess that's primarily cause Corsair CAN get 2 takeouts, where Shark generally can't. Although possibly S3 has switched that up a bit, I haven't managed to get to any events recently to see. 

 

Um.  No..  You are not sacrificing one of the games win conditions by playing Shark if you know how to play his team correctly.

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56 minutes ago, Isante said:

Um.  No..  You are not sacrificing one of the games win conditions by playing Shark if you know how to play his team correctly.

there is always one that disagrees with one of the game designers...

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Just now, HuggyTheBear said:

there is always one that disagrees with one of the game designers...

If you think a Shark team is incapable of take outs you are sorely mistaken.

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I agree Shark can get 2 take outs now Averrisse & Greede are a thing & Jac push outs. But my main issue with Shark is that his legendary is an NPE and against teams with average speeds of 4-6, basically a time walk because with the 8" range he threats a 17" bubble which is basically the entire relevant table (unless you have some wingers hiding - which is Jac town). I don't like that his legendary can basically say - 'you do nothing for this turn'. It immediately brings one player's game to a halt and that isn't fun. When teaching the game as a Pundit it's the one thing I dread because certainly for new players it can be a massive turn off - and it reminds me of Privateer's game Deneghra feat (prevented moving) that was instant rage quit material.

Is he unbeatable? No of course not. But he is extremely strong as SF have pushed footballing over punching to the fore and Shark does it best (maybe tied with Midas but Shark is better at getting the ball one-man style and his legendary is much worse) while weakening Shark's natural predators (Obulus, Fillet).

I do wish SF had reduced the range of Caught in the Net to 6" - or changed it to -2"MOV and Snared so you could shake some of the speed issues. As is outside of super-top play, it's game winning and that's no doubt why Shark is being played by top players...

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I think Shark is insanely strong, but he almost within reason.

He should be the best goal scorer in the game, and that aspect of him shouldn't really be nerfed.

I do think there are aspects of him he doesn't need to have, the number 1 being the strength of his Ultimate. Both the area and strength of his ultimate is staggering and completely oppressive. I'm honestly shocked it was left untouched entering season 3. If they nerf his ultimate, I think he would be in a really good place. Either reduce it to like 4" or reduce it to -2" Movement.

Edit - I could also see a small toughness reduction being within reason as well.

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