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Bornabairn

Puppet master and teamwork plays

52 posts in this topic

Hi

checked the collected answers and didn't see this there.

as the enemy model now counts as friendly, can it be forced to make a 4" dodge after a pass or is it only the pass action that is allowed?

 

cheers

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Because a teamwork is an action. And puppet master allows an attack, jog or pass but not a teamwork action.

The recieving player can use a teamwork action (because this is your model) but not the kicking player.

Puppet master explicitly states, that the model is a friendly one during "this action". But with a completed pass, the action is over. And a teamwork action, would be a second action.

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The only 'friendly' requirement for Teamwork is the receiving model though:

Teamwork

After a successful Pass that targets a friendly model, the Controlling Player may select one of the following actions.

Only one Teamwork action may be selected per successful Pass:

Give’n’Go

The active model may spend [1] MP to immediately make a [4”] Dodge.

Pass’n’Move

The receiving model may spend [1] MP to immediately make a [4”] Dodge.

 

If the passing model isn't the active model but it has reverted back to Obulus, then he should be able to make a Give'n'Go move without being the pass recipient.

Alternatively if the 'active' model is the passer but they are no longer friendly can the opponent trigger Give'n'Go?

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The opponent can't trigger a Teamwork, 'cause he isn't the controlling player. And only the controlling player can trigger Teamwork actions.

But the Obulus question is indeed interesting. I haven't considered this. If Puppet Master ends immediately after the pass, BEFOR you can choose a teamwork action Obulus is indeed the active player.

This feels weird and absolut unintended. But there is now rule prohibiting it, if Puppet Master ends befor deciding for Teamwork...

But if PM doesn't end before, I can propably still force the enemy to dodge... But it would be another action. The Teamwork rule states, that the model spends the MP, so the model takes the action. But as mentioned before PM doesn't allow such an action 

With this argumentation I would stick to the no, but I'm no more 100% sure...

 

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Given that it's not an action and is triggered off the pass while the opposing model is friendly, I don't see why this wouldn't be kosher. Try it on Midas, push him back four inches and keep the momentum. Feels great, let me tell ya.

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1 hour ago, Siberys said:

Given that it's not an action and is triggered off the pass while the opposing model is friendly, I don't see why this wouldn't be kosher. Try it on Midas, push him back four inches and keep the momentum. Feels great, let me tell ya.

Given that they are actually referenced as Teamwork actions I wouldn't be so sure it's not an action.  S3 Rulebook, p44: "After a successful Pass that targets a friendly model, the Controlling Player may select one of the following actions. Only one Teamwork action may be selected per successful Pass"

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35 minutes ago, rozyncrantz said:

Given that they are actually referenced as Teamwork actions I wouldn't be so sure it's not an action.  S3 Rulebook, p44: "After a successful Pass that targets a friendly model, the Controlling Player may select one of the following actions. Only one Teamwork action may be selected per successful Pass"

This plus that:

Using Momentum

[...] All momentous abilities are actions unless otherwise stated.

 

And with these two paragraphs it should be clear, that it is indeed an action.

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My question is the opposite - if my player is forced to make a pass, can I take a teamwork action voluntarily and take a 4" dodge?  Is there an order of opportunity involved (if we both want to take a teamwork action, which of us is able to)?

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This answer indicates you could make a Give'n'Go following Seduced / Puppet Master, and that you would finish the Give'n'Go before moving on to other effects because the effect that allowed the pass was still resolving. That seems to me to indicate both that the target of Puppet Master / Seduced is friendly until the Teamwork Action is finished resolving*, and that Pass'n'Move would also be legal (given that all the necessary requirements for PnM are met).

*This is admittedly the part I'm least sure on. That said, I'm of the belief that these are triggered and therefore "nested" in the resolution of Seduced/PM. That in turn is supported by the fact that Countercharges and Parting Blows, also triggered actions, are totally allowable against a teammate under the effects of Seduced/PM.

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Although that makes it murkier (by implying that teamwork actions aren't actions the same way that other actions are), it also only addresses what the controlling / receiving model does and not what the status of the controlled / kicking model is.  I'll grant, though, that the ruling above does make it seem that any teamwork play is valid after a PM/Seduce pass.  I'd love a Lawyer to firm it up either way.

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2 minutes ago, rozyncrantz said:

Although that makes it murkier (by implying that teamwork actions aren't actions the same way that other actions are), it also only addresses what the controlling / receiving model does and not what the status of the controlled / kicking model is.  I'll grant, though, that the ruling above does make it seem that any teamwork play is valid after a PM/Seduce pass.  I'd love a Lawyer to firm it up either way.

Like I said, on its own it doesn't really say much. But by combining that answer with other known rulings - like Countercharging your own teammates under the effect of a PM being a thing - I think it's pretty clear that PnMing off of a forced pass is legal (and super fun against Midas).

We'll see when the Lawyer's Guild chimes in.

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There's a difference between taking an action with the puppeted model, and taking an action with a third model on the same team as the puppeted model.

 

Teamwork actions are actions, and you can no more perform them under PM than you could use an attack or a character play.

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Compare the wording with that of Counterattack. Counterattack is not called out as not being an action, but is triggered off-turn under certain conditions. The same is true of PnM. I'm confident that before a pass can be declared fully resolved, any triggered actions must also be fully resolved, and since Seduced and PM aren't finished until the pass is itself finished the target of S/PM is friendly during the TWA.

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Because I like to break things down / centralize things for clarity, I think these are the situations we're seeking a ruling on here:

As our example, Midas has the ball and Obulus successfully uses Puppet Master on him, making Midas pass the ball.

If Obulus receives the ball, he can trigger Pass'n'Move, as indicated in the above ruling regarding Siren (correct?).  If the ball is passed to a different Mort model, can that model trigger PnM (I assume yes)?  Can either player trigger Give'n'Go on Midas instead?  If the Alchemist player can trigger GnG on Midas, when does she get to make that declaration?

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You have PnM and GnG mixed up, but otherwise yes that's the specific interaction in question.

Re-read the TWA section, you're entirely correct, nevermind.

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1 minute ago, Siberys said:

You have PnM and GnG mixed up, but otherwise yes that's the specific interaction in question.

PnM is for the receiving model, GnG is for the passing model (p. 44).  

7 minutes ago, Siberys said:

You have PnM and GnG mixed up, but otherwise yes that's the specific interaction in question.

Re-read the TWA section, you're entirely correct, nevermind.

All good.

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I'm pretty sure that even if I'm wrong the Alchemists wouldn't ever have the chance to make the choice, it's either in the Mort's court or not at all; If I am correct, then Midas is still friendly to the Morts and his decisions are therefore made by them; if I'm not correct then by the time he'd be making the decision to use a TWA he's no longer active and therefore can't anyways.

What's absolutely not at question is that Ob could totally get a PNM or a Snap Shot off of a PM pass; that's covered by the Seduced question I linked to earlier and the recent thread regarding on-activation snap shots. It's just Give'n'Go that's questionable.

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The only part of the wording that made me wonder is the mention of "Controlling Player" with regards to the TWAs, which I think is always the same person.  I didn't see the actual rulebook definition, so I could be wrong.

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51 minutes ago, Siberys said:

I'm pretty sure that even if I'm wrong the Alchemists wouldn't ever have the chance to make the choice, it's either in the Mort's court or not at all; If I am correct, then Midas is still friendly to the Morts and his decisions are therefore made by them; if I'm not correct then by the time he'd be making the decision to use a TWA he's no longer active and therefore can't anyways.

What's absolutely not at question is that Ob could totally get a PNM or a Snap Shot off of a PM pass; that's covered by the Seduced question I linked to earlier and the recent thread regarding on-activation snap shots. It's just Give'n'Go that's questionable.

I'm pretty sure as well.  It's really just the GnG question.

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8 hours ago, ProfBeardsly said:

The only part of the wording that made me wonder is the mention of "Controlling Player" with regards to the TWAs, which I think is always the same person.  I didn't see the actual rulebook definition, so I could be wrong.

Controlling Player refers to the person in control of the active model or Goal-Kick.

 

Here you go. So the Player of the model affected by PM can never use a TWA, 'cause he don't control the model at any given time.

edited to clear things.

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... And PM makes the model friendly, which in turn may also switch control. As a matter of fact I'm certain it does; see Attack Sequence step 5 on page 32 of the S3 rulebook. Or would you argue that the Mort's opponent chooses the playbook results of an attack made off of PM?

 

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Maybe I wasn't clear. Have written "the puppet mastered model", so I meant the non-Mort Model, the new friend.

What I meant is that the non-Mort Player can't use a TWA, because he isn't the controlling player during any puppet master step.

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