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TheCurkov

Alchemist Matchups

95 posts in this topic

I played smoke the entirety of season 2 and I really like her play style, but do we even play her anymore?

Let me clarify what I mean. Let's assume we are taking a roster to a tournament with both Smoke and Midas on the roster. What match ups do we prefer Midas in and which ones make us select Smoke?

I think there are a few no-brainers here when it comes to selecting Midas over Smoke. Brewers are all but immune to the conditions game between magical brew, Esters' heroic, and Hooper's heroic the conditions game seems like more trouble than it is worth. Union is also a problem for Smoke. I am having a hard time imagining that a Union team would not play Hemlock as part of their 9 or would leave her on the bench vs Alchemists.

But when we consider the match ups other way around I find that there is little pointing me toward Smoke over Midas. My initial thoughts on when to take Smoke have entirely to do with when I want access to blind since Midas does little to help Calculus and outside of applying blind she does nothing for Midas. I consider the Blind match ups to be Butchers, Fish, and Masons.

The 2 captains issue is further exasperated Katalyst vs Vet Katalyst. You can't have both on the roster and each captain clearly prefers one over the other. 

The roster I am currently considering is: Midas, Smoke, Flask, Mercury, Calculus, Vitriol, Katalyst, Compound, Harry. But I think you arguably could replace Katalyst with Vet Katalyst. 

The other answer I have considered to this problem is to just play one captain, but under the new organized play rules this is Strictly The Worst (and also my single largest gripe with season 3.) If we decide to not play Smoke every roster is almost exactly the same since we have only 10 selections left to make. Midas, Flask, Naja, Calculus, Compound, (one of the) Katalyst('s,) Mercury, Venin, Vitriol, A Union player (lets not kid ourselves this is Harry.) I think everyone that is leaving smoke at home is deciding between playing 2 mascots or playing every other option available.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

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I was thinking about the exact same thing on the Drive home today, making 1 list suit 2 playstyles.

You could argue that Smoke lists are suited more against footballing teams than against brawlers. 

For me, Smoke excels against Engineers in their new format, and to a lesser extent Fish. Pin Vice Engineers are fragile, agile and tricky, however the condition game could be their undoing. I would also say that the condition game could be used against Hunters, but they have alot of ranged attacks too. 

Midas lists Can and will be a mix of football and Brawling. Midas and vitriol can score, Harry and Katalyst can do damage, along with the other two of course.

Combo lists can work, for example, what models can work in both rosters

Vitriol , Harry  for sure

my 9 would look like this 

Midas, Smoke, Naja,Vitriol, Harry, Vet Kat, Compound, Mercury, Calculus

 

Midas, Vitriol, Naja, Compound, Harry , Vet Kat

Smoke, Vitriol , Naja, Harry , Mercury , Vet Kat

 

Season 1 Kat is arguably better suited to a Midas team, but that doesnt mean Vet Kat isnt either, there is still conditions in a Midas Team ( lots of KD's )

His damage is still great, threat is awesome and gives Midas a team of 2" reach apart from himself. Nobody will want to push too hard against Compound, Vet Kat and Harry.

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2 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

The other answer I have considered to this problem is to just play one captain, but under the new organized play rules this is Strictly The Worst (and also my single largest gripe with season 3.) If we decide to not play Smoke every roster is almost exactly the same since we have only 10 selections left to make. Midas, Flask, Naja, Calculus, Compound, (one of the) Katalyst('s,) Mercury, Venin, Vitriol, A Union player (lets not kid ourselves this is Harry.) I think everyone that is leaving smoke at home is deciding between playing 2 mascots or playing every other option available.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

I'm planning to go the one captain/two mascot route at my next event, as I'm pretty sure I'd always prefer to play Midas.  

This is the 9 I'm thinking: Midas, Naja, Flask, Vitriol, Katalyst, Harry, Venin, Compound, Calculus.

Midas, Vitriol, Katalyst, and Harry will always be in my 6.  Will generally take Naja for added gang ups, but Flask if it feels like a good matchup to try for some intensifies (especially if I get that sweet, sweet Sic 'Em *).  Venin will be the default 6th model, but swap out for Compound where I would prefer a goalie.  Calculus will likely never take the field.  

 

*Had a game this weekend where Flask got to start the turn with 2 influence and Sic 'Em a double crowded out Stave for a total of 9 Intensifies and 10 Momentum and a takeout of a nearby Stoker.  

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19 minutes ago, Arkin said:

I'm planning to go the one captain/two mascot route at my next event, as I'm pretty sure I'd always prefer to play Midas.  

This is the 9 I'm thinking: Midas, Naja, Flask, Vitriol, Katalyst, Harry, Venin, Compound, Calculus.

Midas, Vitriol, Katalyst, and Harry will always be in my 6.  Will generally take Naja for added gang ups, but Flask if it feels like a good matchup to try for some intensifies (especially if I get that sweet, sweet Sic 'Em *).  Venin will be the default 6th model, but swap out for Compound where I would prefer a goalie.  Calculus will likely never take the field.  

 

I like the line up. With this line up I see a solid 6 Midas, Mascot, Vitriol, Compound, Harry, Kataylst. What match ups would you swap the other players in during?

What match ups do you think you will play Venin in? I feel like compound fills the same role as him only better.

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1 hour ago, TheCurkov said:

I like the line up. With this line up I see a solid 6 Midas, Mascot, Vitriol, Compound, Harry, Kataylst. What match ups would you swap the other players in during?

What match ups do you think you will play Venin in? I feel like compound fills the same role as him only better.

I need to play with Venin more to see how it plays out in practice, but my thought is mostly to use him for additional condition pressure and gangups with Harry and Kat. Harry and Kat both KD and push so easily that you can often force the opponent to spend mom to clear the first KD in order to reengage and then reapply more conditions later--when they either can't remove them or they have to spend even more momentum to do so. Venin engages people so they get poison when they activate, Harry and Kat push people into his aura so they get poison (and a gangup), opportunistically on turns he goes late, he heroics to add bleed and some extra damage to soften up/finish off models who can't clear conditions, etc. As a side bonus, he's moderately fast with a long kick and a tackle on 2, so he can retrieve the ball fairly well and get it to Vitriol or Midas on occasion if needed. (I don't expect to ever give him inf otherwise)

I know for sure I want a battery who can contribute with 0 influence in that 6th spot (EDIT: because Vitriol, Midas, Kat, and Harry all want 4 and that's already more than we've got), and the best two options for that are Venin and Compound.  I expect Venin may prove more effective in matchups that are more about the fighting than the football, but I'm not certain yet.

Edited by Arkin
clarification

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There are synergies between the common Midas build (Midas, Flask, Harry, Vitriol, and X) and vKatalyst that make him a worthwhile addition to the roster. Firstly, Midas' Legendary puts the snared condition on quite a wide area of the board. Harry has KD and Molotovs. Kat can KD his targets, and with your X slot you can throw in Calculus or Mercury for some additional condition goodness. 

That's not to take away from oKatalyst who is very good in his own right, but I think Smoke wants vKatalyst a lot more than Midas wants oKatalyst and there is enough synergy with Midas to make vKatalyst effective with him.   

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15 minutes ago, Murph said:

There are synergies between the common Midas build (Midas, Flask, Harry, Vitriol, and X) and vKatalyst that make him a worthwhile addition to the roster. Firstly, Midas' Legendary puts the snared condition on quite a wide area of the board. Harry has KD and Molotovs. Kat can KD his targets, and with your X slot you can throw in Calculus or Mercury for some additional condition goodness. 

That's not to take away from oKatalyst who is very good in his own right, but I think Smoke wants vKatalyst a lot more than Midas wants oKatalyst and there is enough synergy with Midas to make vKatalyst effective with him.   

I think this is a good argument for vKat if you want to run a two captain list and play both captains, and especially if you want to main Smoke.

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1 hour ago, Arkin said:

I know for sure I want a battery who can contribute with 0 influence in that 6th spot (EDIT: because Vitriol, Midas, Kat, and Harry all want 4 and that's already more than we've got), and the best two options for that are Venin and Compound.  I expect Venin may prove more effective in matchups that are more about the fighting than the football, but I'm not certain yet.

I feel that Compound is a more durable battery. 3/1 gluttonous mass > 4/1 sometimes 4/2 also 4 more boxes helps compound out a lot. The thing that Venin brings in my opinion is the Heroic and a slight damage bump in the form of poison. What teams do you play against that you think the reduced survivability is worth the extra condition game?

 

15 minutes ago, Murph said:

There are synergies between the common Midas build (Midas, Flask, Harry, Vitriol, and X) and vKatalyst that make him a worthwhile addition to the roster. Firstly, Midas' Legendary puts the snared condition on quite a wide area of the board. Harry has KD and Molotovs. Kat can KD his targets, and with your X slot you can throw in Calculus or Mercury for some additional condition goodness. 

That's not to take away from oKatalyst who is very good in his own right, but I think Smoke wants vKatalyst a lot more than Midas wants oKatalyst and there is enough synergy with Midas to make vKatalyst effective with him.   

I think you are right that Vet Katalyst is decent with Midas. If I am planning on playing both captains I may need to play Vet Katalyst otherwise the smoke drop may never be a good idea. 

 

4 hours ago, Thyphs said:

For me, Smoke excels against Engineers in their new format, and to a lesser extent Fish. Pin Vice Engineers are fragile, agile and tricky, however the condition game could be their undoing. I would also say that the condition game could be used against Hunters, but they have alot of ranged attacks too. 

I am worried about being out shot by both of these teams, but blind could be quite brutal vs a team with 6" kicks (almost entirely) across the board.

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Going back to Hemlocke, hasn't Smelling Salts changed to only remove conditions, not health? Assuming you are kicking, Smoke can go last T1, Legendary, Chemical Breeze poison and possibly burning onto Hemlocke and that is 5-6 damage without needing a roll, not withstanding her being hit by AoE's earlier in the turn. If she doesn't go first next turn, you have the chance to slap more AoE on her or throw vKat within 2" of her to intensify to death. She is very fragile and as she can't now heal, isn't quite so good at undoing condition damage as she was.

I am still tempted by 2 captain rosters, as Midas and Smoke can play quite different styles - goal scoring or mass damage. It'd be nice to have both mascots as well, but I haven't been able to try out S3 Midas and Naja yet, so I don't know how good they are. Have to say, never really 'got' Venin, which puts me off using Naja a little. Might try Midas, Naja, Vitriol, Venin, Katalyst and Compound/Mercury/Calculus (not got Harry yet, still not massively convinced).

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I think.. I'm going with Midas, Smoke, Naja, Merc, Calc, Vitriol, Harry, vKat and.... I'm not super sure on my last spot. Possibly compound for Brewers, or the last spot could be Venin to play a super heavy Smoke team where necessary. vKat could also be Kat1 as I'm a big fan of him, but as others have said I think if I'm taking Smoke also vKat sits better.

I think I want to play Midas into teams that are too resilient to Smokes game (Esters, Union and Attricmen spring to mind) and play a line up with as many dodges as possible (Midas, Naja, Vitriol, Venin if he's in there etc) to play the ball game. 

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If you're kicking to your opponent, you have the last pick of player, so you can leave your captain till last and take Midas if they have Hemlocke and Smoke if they don't. You can build a team to work with both captains, something like Flask, Vitriol, Harry, VKatalyst, Calculus looks like a fine 2-goal + Witness Me! lineup for either captain.

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18 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

I feel that Compound is a more durable battery. 3/1 gluttonous mass > 4/1 sometimes 4/2 also 4 more boxes helps compound out a lot. The thing that Venin brings in my opinion is the Heroic and a slight damage bump in the form of poison. What teams do you play against that you think the reduced survivability is worth the extra condition game?

That's a good question. I've only played with Venin twice, and once was in a Midas mirror where Compound was clearly the correct choice (but I wanted to get some experience with Venin), so this is purely theorizing. The difference, in my mind, is Compound is more likely to deny the other team points, while Venin is more likely to gain you points (if at the risk of giving up 2). If the other team is one that is going to be pushing for goals, it's clear Compound is the better value.  Fishermen, Engineers, Alchemists, I'm definitely bringing Compound.

But are there matchups where Venin's slight 'free' added damage actually contributes better to winning the game? Maybe against Vet Rage or Butchers, Hunters, Brewers? In those matchups, there may be more value in being more proactive on the melee axis. Kat and Harry, the Bruise Brothers, the Goon Squad, the Merchants of Mayhem, both fairly reliably put out 6-12 damage. Venin can sometimes turn that into 8-17, which can certainly be enough to cross the takeout threshold. And he has a side bonus of having an 8" kick. But I don't know how reliably you can leverage that extra damage vs. how vulnerable he will be to those teams. I tend to have an optimistic perspective on the upside of models and need some time on the pitch to suss out where reality is (and this is really my first competitive minis game, so I'm just learning how to think critically about lineups and understand the gameplay).

 

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Played Tapper brewers tonight....12-2 win with Midas, Naja , Vet Kat, Harry , Vitriol and compound.

My opponent just hated the "wall of death" that Kat, Harry and Compound provided. All 2" reach apart from midas is horiffic. I played defence until i isolated Tapper and killed him with vet Kat...then rushed out with Harry, Vitriol and compound to swarm Hooper and Stoker to then allow Midas two quick goals.

Witness me is very handy for a 2 goal 1 takeout win

Midas is just a total jerk now for running in, tackling then dodging out, supershot, goal

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Played hunters tonight - Midas, Naja, Vitriol, Calculus, Kat1 and Compound. 12-7 win, turn 1 lure of gold into charging chaska got me 3 momentum, got next turn and killed chaska, katalyst charged jeacar in the following turn, and killed him following turn, midas scored and then snapshot for the win

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What's your squad for Ballista led engineers? I played half a game yesterday (had to stop before we finished) but I wasn't feeling the best with Smoke, that said it was my first game with her.

Smoke - Flask,Merc,Calc,Venin,Vitriol. (I don't have vKat... :( )

against

Balista - Mainspring,Ratchet,Salvo,Hoist,Velocity

I'm thinking I could have done better with oKat in for Vitriol, but maybe I should have just gone Midas.

 

So yeah, against Balista, who do you drop?

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On 12/8/2016 at 11:31 AM, burroboskov said:

What's your squad for Ballista led engineers? I played half a game yesterday (had to stop before we finished) but I wasn't feeling the best with Smoke, that said it was my first game with her.

Smoke - Flask,Merc,Calc,Venin,Vitriol. (I don't have vKat... :( )

against

Balista - Mainspring,Ratchet,Salvo,Hoist,Velocity

I'm thinking I could have done better with oKat in for Vitriol, but maybe I should have just gone Midas.

 

So yeah, against Balista, who do you drop?

Be curious to see this one too. We have a guy in my meta who runs a similar line up that no one can really touch, and it may have gotten worse with S3. 

Between tough hide and reanimate they are too quick to effectively win on TOs. Minefield as a character play makes Ballista much more effective as any but our fattest models are within easy kill range with one advance. Thinking about it I would probably go

Midas- Flask, Vitriol, Mercury, okat, and Harry. Try my best to bog down the center of the pitch with okat and mercury spreading fire, and outscore them. Between Harry and oKat it'd be about KDs and Goad preventing goals while fire limits movement. Hopefully this gives Midas and Vitriol time to score and maybe take Salvo/ratchet out. 

He had a match with a buddy with Fish last less then 30 minutes so even with fire all about we may not be able to slow them down enough. 

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23 hours ago, Derelict said:

Be curious to see this one too. We have a guy in my meta who runs a similar line up that no one can really touch, and it may have gotten worse with S3. 

Between tough hide and reanimate they are too quick to effectively win on TOs. Minefield as a character play makes Ballista much more effective as any but our fattest models are within easy kill range with one advance. Thinking about it I would probably go

Midas- Flask, Vitriol, Mercury, okat, and Harry. Try my best to bog down the center of the pitch with okat and mercury spreading fire, and outscore them. Between Harry and oKat it'd be about KDs and Goad preventing goals while fire limits movement. Hopefully this gives Midas and Vitriol time to score and maybe take Salvo/ratchet out. 

He had a match with a buddy with Fish last less then 30 minutes so even with fire all about we may not be able to slow them down enough. 

I think I would try Midas, Naja, Vitriol, vKat, Harry, Calculus into them.  Picked up vKat over the weekend and have gotten in a few games with him and been very impressed.  The pressure of Midas, Vitriol, and vKat all threatening 4 point activations means you can set up a lot of situations where your opponent is overloaded and can't take the actions they want.  Harry's molotov and KD along with Calculus' blind should help slow them in the meantime, while both players also help provide conditions for vKat.  Naja can harass and be a possible extra source of poison for vKat.

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On 12/5/2016 at 10:57 AM, TheCurkov said:

But when we consider the match ups other way around I find that there is little pointing me toward Smoke over Midas. My initial thoughts on when to take Smoke have entirely to do with when I want access to blind since Midas does little to help Calculus and outside of applying blind she does nothing for Midas. I consider the Blind match ups to be Butchers, Fish, and Masons.

The 2 captains issue is further exasperated Katalyst vs Vet Katalyst. You can't have both on the roster and each captain clearly prefers one over the other. 

The roster I am currently considering is: Midas, Smoke, Flask, Mercury, Calculus, Vitriol, Katalyst, Compound, Harry. But I think you arguably could replace Katalyst with Vet Katalyst. 

Have your thoughts changed at all here with the ability to take both Katalysts?  I'm settling into the roster you listed here, but swapping Mercury out for vKat.  Midas, Smoke, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, Kat, vKat, Calculus, Compound.

So, you've got Smoke, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, vKat, Calculus for the blind matchups, and Midas, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, Kat, Compound for the others. I don't know if Smoke ever wants anyone but those 6 from that 9, but Midas might want to take Calculus for Compound or Calculus and vKat for Compound and Kat in some matchups?

 

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22 hours ago, Arkin said:

Have your thoughts changed at all here with the ability to take both Katalysts?  I'm settling into the roster you listed here, but swapping Mercury out for vKat.  Midas, Smoke, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, Kat, vKat, Calculus, Compound.

So, you've got Smoke, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, vKat, Calculus for the blind matchups, and Midas, Flask, Vitriol, Harry, Kat, Compound for the others. I don't know if Smoke ever wants anyone but those 6 from that 9, but Midas might want to take Calculus for Compound or Calculus and vKat for Compound and Kat in some matchups?

 

It is entirely possible that I am too conservative with my use of blind because of the high risk of failure considering the potential reward and low cost, but I see the amount of spreadable movement reduction from mercury to be MUCH more valuable than a 50/50 blind from calculus. In order to get prime use of it she would need to activate early in the turn so having the MO to bonus time and bring that blind up to 2 dice would be in question. With the katalyst changes I don't think I would ever swap out these two.

Am I approaching the new Midas wrong? I've seen some really fast (2 turn) games played with him and with this approach mine are still leaning toward 4 turns. With Midas being less kill flexible am I better off going for play breaking offense than the denial approach I used with him before?

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5 hours ago, Derelict said:

It is entirely possible that I am too conservative with my use of blind because of the high risk of failure considering the potential reward and low cost, but I see the amount of spreadable movement reduction from mercury to be MUCH more valuable than a 50/50 blind from calculus. In order to get prime use of it she would need to activate early in the turn so having the MO to bonus time and bring that blind up to 2 dice would be in question. With the katalyst changes I don't think I would ever swap out these two.

What would your 9 be, then?

5 hours ago, Derelict said:

Am I approaching the new Midas wrong? I've seen some really fast (2 turn) games played with him and with this approach mine are still leaning toward 4 turns. With Midas being less kill flexible am I better off going for play breaking offense than the denial approach I used with him before?

I've got minimal experience with Smoke or s2 Midas, but I've had some success playing s3 Midas fairly aggressively into Butchers, Brewers, Hunters, Union. Two goals between Midas and Vitriol feel relatively guaranteed, and it's just a matter of finding those last 4 points.  Kat and Harry are usually good to combine for a couple of takeouts, and Flask can often get one the ~40% of the time where you see Sic Em ['60% of the time, it works every time!'].  

I usually have Vitriol on one wing and Midas to the other side of center, with Kat and Harry teaming up in the middle, Compound playing goalie or moving up to help gang up in the middle as needed. Generally, Midas is lure of golding Kat so he gets to engage on turn 1, Harry is tossing a molotov somewhere to disrupt a lane, and Vitriol is scoring a goal. T2 Harry is teaming up with Kat to take someone out and cause as much disruption as possible, and Midas or Vitriol is scoring a second goal. That just leaves another 2 points to find turn 3. (I also think I might like vKat over oKat sometimes, as that 1 takeout puts you to 12, but I haven't figured out yet when that's the better choice, or if it ever is with Midas.)

Doesn't always work exactly that way, of course, but that's the plan, and it feels pretty effective. I HAVE struggled vs. Engineers and Fish, though, so I'm interested to see how Smoke plays into them.

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Of course this needs major testing, but these choices indicate who I would lean towards in these matchups.

Brewers 

Tapper: Midas (Hooper & Stoker would affect choice)

Esters: Midas

Morticians

Obulus: Smoke

Scalpel: Smoke

Butchers

Fillet: Smoke

Ox: Smoke

Fishermen

Corsair: Midas

Shark: Smoke

Masons(depends on vHarmony)

Hammer: Smoke

Honour: Undecided

Engineers

Pin Vice: Smoke

Ballista: Leaning towards Smoke

Union(depends on Hemlocke)

vRage: Smoke

Blackheart: Midas

Hunters

Theron: Smoke

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My current 9 looks like - SMoke, Midas, Naja, Vitriol, oKat, vKat, Compound, Calculus, Harry.

Typical roster looks like - Smoke, Naja, Vitriol, Harry, vKat, Calculus or Midas, Naja, Vitriol, Harry, Compound, oKat.

Compound I need to decide when to swap in / out.  He's a good flex pick and I like having him on my 9 as people tend to keep them in him mind when drafting, but I rarely put him in. I'm missing Mercury + Venin, but I'm not too unhappy about missing either of the two. I feel Harry does enough for both Smoke & Midas to have him the roster and I've never got along with Venin so pretty chuffed with the above 9 man. 

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8 hours ago, NowYouSeeMe said:

I pretty much agree with all of this, how comes Midas for Corsair though? 

Tough Hide on Corsair, Kraken and Avarisse

vSiren is not fun stuck in the middle of that bunch.

So, that leaves you Greyscales,Sakana & Tentacles to Take Out. They are slippery as eels, so it's better to try & play football.

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On 12/20/2016 at 4:24 AM, NowYouSeeMe said:

My current 9 looks like - SMoke, Midas, Naja, Vitriol, oKat, vKat, Compound, Calculus, Harry.

Typical roster looks like - Smoke, Naja, Vitriol, Harry, vKat, Calculus or Midas, Naja, Vitriol, Harry, Compound, oKat.

Compound I need to decide when to swap in / out.  He's a good flex pick and I like having him on my 9 as people tend to keep them in him mind when drafting, but I rarely put him in. I'm missing Mercury + Venin, but I'm not too unhappy about missing either of the two. I feel Harry does enough for both Smoke & Midas to have him the roster and I've never got along with Venin so pretty chuffed with the above 9 man. 

Two questions, 

1)Didn't the most recent organized play doc make it so you couldn't have okat and vkat in the same 9? I could just have heard that wrong.

2)You still find Naja puts in more work than Flask with Harry in your Midas list and all those conditions with Smoke? With Flask getting icy sponge I find punching him up the middle for a 3x wrap Intensify sacrifice more useful than naja's 2" crowd and occasional Hypnosis. She isn't even good as a ball holder against fish because of all of their 2"reach, and that's the only match up we don't have a stronger football team. I really like Naja but with s3 I don't think there's enough reason to field her. 

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