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TheCurkov

Alchemist Matchups

95 posts in this topic
On 1/29/2017 at 10:05 AM, Gauntlet said:

If you say so. As I said earlier in the thread, I generally plan to get most of my VPs on takeouts with sometimes a goal to finish, unless an easy early goal opportunity presents itself.

 

On 1/29/2017 at 11:58 AM, FearLord said:

Conditions aren't about killing people from fresh - they're about bringing people low enough to finish off with Vitriol or Katalyst Splash damage, so that on turn 3 you have multiple routes to close out a game that your opponent can't protect against - if you can grab 2 kills or a goal, which does he prioritise stopping?

My experience playing against a LOT of Alchemists players including two jokesters in this thread is that if an Alchemist legitimately attempts to get 3x+ take-outs through conditions over multiple turns, the game ends with most of my team at half health or below... and me having won 12-2. 

This style is just way, way, way too slow. 

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As I said I think Engineers bring the quality as engineers so it's typically a skill based match up. Guildball is very deep in tactics and resource management so match ups like that can really seem intense and a uphill battle when starting the game. Engineers offer amazing goal scoring while not folding in melee like a fishermen team.

I would go with Smoke into Engineers however, with vKat you can play a fast 2 goals 1 take out game. Only needing 1 take out can push the game into your favour as the engineers just score so damn fast you can keep up. All that said, nothing beats table time and raw practice. It may feel like you're bashing your head against a brick wall, but you will smash through it with practice.

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10 hours ago, Slothrop said:

 

My experience playing against a LOT of Alchemists players including two jokesters in this thread is that if an Alchemist legitimately attempts to get 3x+ take-outs through conditions over multiple turns, the game ends with most of my team at half health or below... and me having won 12-2. 

This style is just way, way, way too slow. 

I can't speak for @Gauntlet but I'd imagine he's speaking from the experience of winning 2 four round events with Alchemists in December and January. I was certainly talking about tactics I used successfully last weekend when I won a five round tournament.

As I say though, killing a player from fresh to dead with just conditions is generally wishful thinking. What they do is make takeouts easier to get - either by getting players lower on health so that they can be finished off (I often have Vitriol finish a couple of low health players in a single activation- it's very hard to stop her getting where she wants to go) or by threatening to take out players that have already activated and are expensive to heal. You have to have finishers.

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I am just getting into Alchemists and haven't quite gotten the hang of them. How do you deal with beater teams if you lose the kickoff role? In particular I got straight up rolled over against Fillet with my opponent getting the ball each time. Being able to threaten 16-20" (depending on one or two dodges from passing) and coming in with DEF 6 and tooled up just wrecked me. She can basically get to any player I have on the board. Even with a last activation, she generates so much momentum on her turn that going into a DEF 6 character won't do much to catch up. She will almost always lead to going first the top of 2 and then kills who ever she initially engaged and then likely another player.

Midas and Naja have UM, I can put Clone up on Vitriol, and Compound has counter charge. Do you just set up these models to make it difficult to get in that Alpha? If you hang back you aren't pressuring to steal the ball and score. Once she was into my lines it felt like it was basically over. I was very unlucky in my kick deviation rolls and rolls in general (e.g. vKat on a charge into Fillet who was on fire with two models ganging up rolling 14 die getting 2 hits and no more than 2 in subsequent rolls with 10 dice) but this still seem a bad matchup. I struggle more against Fillet than any other captain, but it seem particularly bad this time around.

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5 hours ago, wrenwood said:

I am just getting into Alchemists and haven't quite gotten the hang of them. How do you deal with beater teams if you lose the kickoff role? In particular I got straight up rolled over against Fillet with my opponent getting the ball each time. Being able to threaten 16-20" (depending on one or two dodges from passing) and coming in with DEF 6 and tooled up just wrecked me. She can basically get to any player I have on the board. Even with a last activation, she generates so much momentum on her turn that going into a DEF 6 character won't do much to catch up. She will almost always lead to going first the top of 2 and then kills who ever she initially engaged and then likely another player.

Midas and Naja have UM, I can put Clone up on Vitriol, and Compound has counter charge. Do you just set up these models to make it difficult to get in that Alpha? If you hang back you aren't pressuring to steal the ball and score. Once she was into my lines it felt like it was basically over. I was very unlucky in my kick deviation rolls and rolls in general (e.g. vKat on a charge into Fillet who was on fire with two models ganging up rolling 14 die getting 2 hits and no more than 2 in subsequent rolls with 10 dice) but this still seem a bad matchup. I struggle more against Fillet than any other captain, but it seem particularly bad this time around.

Simple, just put Venin out with Sacrifical Puppet. ; )

In all seriousness, Fillet can be very tough on turn 1 and 2 when piloted by a skilled player. Like you said, UM, Compound's counter charge, Clone are all great tools against her. The other big one is a counter attack with >>, << or ><. She will still get off pain circle, but it won't be nearly as bad as it could be. 

 

Outside of those options, I find that the best thing to do in these situations is use the terrain and my opponents set up to my advantage. Ideally you want to place the ball resting on the otherside of a wall or obstable so that they cannot retrieve it turn 1 or are forced to have someone way out of position if they do retrieve it. If they leave the ball, great! Send vitrol pass it back and get her safe or use her as bait to get them out of position. Starve them of momentum turn 1 and pass the ball a few times to win the turn 2 roll.

If they do get it back to their line sucessfully, then you can try to plink with range or if they are out of Fillet threat range, send the team in for a kill. 

However when this is not possible, you still do have options even against an experienced fillet, strategic aoe placement, bonus time blind, sending a sacraficial player out in such a way that your team is threatens to do some real dmg to fillet after she activates at the top of turn 2. None are 'hard counters' but you layer them up to make her really think twice about if the blood missle is worth it. You will likely always have to absorb a big shot from her on turn 1/2 but with smart play and a little luck her giant turn 1/2 activations can be mitigated. 

 

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1 hour ago, y2ace said:

Simple, just put Venin out with Sacrifical Puppet. ; )

In all seriousness, Fillet can be very tough on turn 1 and 2 when piloted by a skilled player. Like you said, UM, Compound's counter charge, Clone are all great tools against her. The other big one is a counter attack with >>, << or ><. She will still get off pain circle, but it won't be nearly as bad as it could be. 

 

Outside of those options, I find that the best thing to do in these situations is use the terrain and my opponents set up to my advantage. Ideally you want to place the ball resting on the otherside of a wall or obstable so that they cannot retrieve it turn 1 or are forced to have someone way out of position if they do retrieve it. If they leave the ball, great! Send vitrol pass it back and get her safe or use her as bait to get them out of position. Starve them of momentum turn 1 and pass the ball a few times to win the turn 2 roll.

If they do get it back to their line sucessfully, then you can try to plink with range or if they are out of Fillet threat range, send the team in for a kill. 

However when this is not possible, you still do have options even against an experienced fillet, strategic aoe placement, bonus time blind, sending a sacraficial player out in such a way that your team is threatens to do some real dmg to fillet after she activates at the top of turn 2. None are 'hard counters' but you layer them up to make her really think twice about if the blood missle is worth it. You will likely always have to absorb a big shot from her on turn 1/2 but with smart play and a little luck her giant turn 1/2 activations can be mitigated. 

 

The problem with a lot of those options is that if they start with the ball you don't have any momentum unless the Butcher player decides to be charitable and move someone into range of one of your AOEs (and you have Smoke within 4"). Otherwise you can't counter attack. She is also going late in the turn and has between a 12" and 20" threat depending on dodges from passes and is likely defense 6 with swift stance and has tooled up. Even when you can counter attack, being natively 5 defense means it is very rare to get more than one success on her so even then it doesn't help much. After the first turn it seems manageable, it is her ability to just swoop in and bring death into your deployment zone when they start with the ball with the last activation of the turn that gets me. :(. You are right that part of it is that I need to be better about where I place the ball, with with either Brisket, Shank, Minx, they are likely going to be able to get the ball and kick it safely back to the lines unless there is terrain to pin it. Depending on the board layout doesn't seem like a great option (there wasn't any terrain to pin it to in the games we played).

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1 hour ago, wrenwood said:

The problem with a lot of those options is that if they start with the ball you don't have any momentum unless the Butcher player decides to be charitable and move someone into range of one of your AOEs (and you have Smoke within 4"). Otherwise you can't counter attack. She is also going late in the turn and has between a 12" and 20" threat depending on dodges from passes and is likely defense 6 with swift stance and has tooled up. Even when you can counter attack, being natively 5 defense means it is very rare to get more than one success on her so even then it doesn't help much. After the first turn it seems manageable, it is her ability to just swoop in and bring death into your deployment zone when they start with the ball with the last activation of the turn that gets me. :(. You are right that part of it is that I need to be better about where I place the ball, with with either Brisket, Shank, Minx, they are likely going to be able to get the ball and kick it safely back to the lines unless there is terrain to pin it. Depending on the board layout doesn't seem like a great option (there wasn't any terrain to pin it to in the games we played).

You are spot on in that it is 100% feasible that there is no great option. 
For alchemists I think most of our counterplay comes in proactive measures during draft and setup rather than reactive during the game. Setup to avoid her as much as possible, bait her into a suboptimal play or draft compound and/or someone with early push/dodge access. But after the kickoff, the die is cast so to speak and all you can hope for is a lucky blind or her to roll poorly/make a mistake.

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Ever try kicking off with Vitriol? Move her six inches up into cover, kick the ball to where only their outer most player(s) can get to it for a pass back, unless they dodge behind the line or miss the pass Vitriol charges in 11" with a 2" reach and can generally succeed enough for momentum on first hit, tackle on second, shoot 8" for a goal, not a guaranteed 4 pts but it has worked 90% of the time for me, then they either try to take her out (sometimes unsuccessfully due to her def5 and possible clone from her charge) or ignore her to get in position for next turn leaving her in snapshot range if you didn't go the defensive route of using knee slider and possibly a Lure of Gold. They may still get turn 2 activation but may not be in very good position to do much with it without the threat of midas or Vitriol scoring a second goal super quick turn 2

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2 hours ago, dledbett said:

Ever try kicking off with Vitriol? Move her six inches up into cover, kick the ball to where only their outer most player(s) can get to it for a pass back, unless they dodge behind the line or miss the pass Vitriol charges in 11" with a 2" reach and can generally succeed enough for momentum on first hit, tackle on second, shoot 8" for a goal, not a guaranteed 4 pts but it has worked 90% of the time for me, then they either try to take her out (sometimes unsuccessfully due to her def5 and possible clone from her charge) or ignore her to get in position for next turn leaving her in snapshot range if you didn't go the defensive route of using knee slider and possibly a Lure of Gold. They may still get turn 2 activation but may not be in very good position to do much with it without the threat of midas or Vitriol scoring a second goal super quick turn 2

100% this - why react to your opponent when you can force him to react to you? 

Vitriol has a truely massive threat range if she starts in cover - as @dledbettpoints out, there are relatively few places your opponent can put the ball that's safe from her. If they do manage to find somewhere safe for it, hold her for last activation and she should easily be able to generate you 3-4 momentum at the end of the turn...

If he sends Fillet into her, it's usually a win - if you have 1 momentum left to counter with, you've got a decent chance of disengaging from her with 2 hits. If you managed to get Clone off your charge attack earlier, it's even harder. Be aggressive!

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10 hours ago, FearLord said:

100% this - why react to your opponent when you can force him to react to you? 

Vitriol has a truely massive threat range if she starts in cover - as @dledbettpoints out, there are relatively few places your opponent can put the ball that's safe from her. If they do manage to find somewhere safe for it, hold her for last activation and she should easily be able to generate you 3-4 momentum at the end of the turn...

If he sends Fillet into her, it's usually a win - if you have 1 momentum left to counter with, you've got a decent chance of disengaging from her with 2 hits. If you managed to get Clone off your charge attack earlier, it's even harder. Be aggressive!

This was my plan in both games, and both games got very suboptimal kick scatters (like 1/36 chance type scatters :( ) that made it possible for a player to reach the ball and kick it back to Butcher lines. I guess I just need to keep working on the kickoff with Vitriol to put pressure on them. When I did hold her for last activation, Fillet came in with the next to last activation. She didn't do much damage to Vitriol, but with swift stance up I wasn't doing much with 5 die vs. DEF 6. I should probably have avoided that risk by activating her one turn earlier to that she could hit someone else and generate momentum.

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9 minutes ago, wrenwood said:

This was my plan in both games, and both games got very suboptimal kick scatters (like 1/36 chance type scatters :( ) that made it possible for a player to reach the ball and kick it back to Butcher lines. I guess I just need to keep working on the kickoff with Vitriol to put pressure on them. When I did hold her for last activation, Fillet came in with the next to last activation. She didn't do much damage to Vitriol, but with swift stance up I wasn't doing much with 5 die vs. DEF 6. I should probably have avoided that risk by activating her one turn earlier to that she could hit someone else and generate momentum.

You shouldn't have much trouble getting it from your opponents starting line with Vitriol - you've moved up 6" (ish, because you finished in cover) and your threat range is another 13". There's only 16" between starting lines, so unless your opponent dodged straight back, you should have much of an issue getting to the ball - it helps to put her on one side and kick to the flank though so that you can limit the players they can get it back to...

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On 1/27/2017 at 0:56 PM, Gauntlet said:

Bringing a Fire AOE doesn't give you anything you don't already have with Harry. Calculus sees play because she brings a poison AOE which is otherwise unavailable to Smoke except on Legendary turn (unless you take Hemlocke).

So just out of curiosity if you don't take Mercury who is the 9th? OKat? Without being able to put him and VetKat on the table I really only see him on a Midas team? Which at this point I can only see playing Midas into Shark or Esters and if I'm playing Brewers I don't wanna see stoker? I still think VetKat could wreck more fish?

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3 hours ago, THE_DOJO_JAKE said:

So just out of curiosity if you don't take Mercury who is the 9th? OKat? Without being able to put him and VetKat on the table I really only see him on a Midas team? Which at this point I can only see playing Midas into Shark or Esters and if I'm playing Brewers I don't wanna see stoker? I still think VetKat could wreck more fish?

Vet Katalyst isn't great into a lot of Fishermen lists - tough Hide is a real problem for him, and Corsair Fishermen can field quite a bit. Lots of 2" melee can shut down his free charge as well. Drag / seduced and ganging up will quickly leave him a bit of a liability...

On the other hand, I'm not hugely sure that regular Katalyst is much better into Fishemen either - I've had some great moments, like using external combustion to put fire out over a whole bunched up team, but I've also had frustrating ones where he can't get to anyone apart from Greyscales or where he gets knocked down outside of melee range and I don't have the momentum to stand up. So far, I've won all my tournament games against Fishermen in Season 3 using regular Katalyst and Midas for 4/5 of them, and Katalyst has always done something, but he's spent a big chunk of those games waiting to really get started...

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5 hours ago, THE_DOJO_JAKE said:

So just out of curiosity if you don't take Mercury who is the 9th? OKat? Without being able to put him and VetKat on the table I really only see him on a Midas team? Which at this point I can only see playing Midas into Shark or Esters and if I'm playing Brewers I don't wanna see stoker? I still think VetKat could wreck more fish?

My 9 is usually Smoke, Midas, Flask, Vitriol, Compound, VKat, Calculus, Harry, OKat. Katalyst 1 doesn't come off the bench very often, but he gives me the option of fielding a Midas lineup with zero condition silliness and just a lot of good independent players instead, which is nice to have available.

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On 2/2/2017 at 11:08 AM, RTOAHB said:

Currently enjoying

 

Midas, Smoke, Naja, Vitriol, oKat, vKat, Compound, Calculus, Harry the Hat. Enjoying it very much, I don't feel like I have a bad match up. Engineers / Corsair fish are most challenging, but I think that's also because they share the quality rosters that Alchemists have.

Pretty much what I'm running, except no calculus and invert crucible (she's a ball buster for hunters) 

what do you play into Obulus?

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14 hours ago, Poetica said:

Pretty much what I'm running, except no calculus and invert crucible (she's a ball buster for hunters) 

 

Have you missed Calculus with Smoke? That the only reason I'm debating keeping her in currently. Crucible can be annoying, but Calculus feels more consistent, especially in a Smoke line up.

Also, Flask or Naja? :P I can never decide!

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On 2/9/2017 at 0:02 PM, wrenwood said:

I am just getting into Alchemists and haven't quite gotten the hang of them. How do you deal with beater teams if you lose the kickoff role? In particular I got straight up rolled over against Fillet with my opponent getting the ball each time. Being able to threaten 16-20" (depending on one or two dodges from passing) and coming in with DEF 6 and tooled up just wrecked me. She can basically get to any player I have on the board. Even with a last activation, she generates so much momentum on her turn that going into a DEF 6 character won't do much to catch up. She will almost always lead to going first the top of 2 and then kills who ever she initially engaged and then likely another player.

Midas and Naja have UM, I can put Clone up on Vitriol, and Compound has counter charge. Do you just set up these models to make it difficult to get in that Alpha? If you hang back you aren't pressuring to steal the ball and score. Once she was into my lines it felt like it was basically over. I was very unlucky in my kick deviation rolls and rolls in general (e.g. vKat on a charge into Fillet who was on fire with two models ganging up rolling 14 die getting 2 hits and no more than 2 in subsequent rolls with 10 dice) but this still seem a bad matchup. I struggle more against Fillet than any other captain, but it seem particularly bad this time around.

So, this is my experience, take it with a grain of salt. 

First, kick off with Vitrol. You want to group up on the left or right, with Vit on one end, and Midas on the other. This might cause your opponent to put Fillet, Shank, VBrisket, or Brisket on that side. Try to deploy within an inch of cover if you can. Then, you kick off in the other direction, forcing the ball as far in that direction as you can, while still going over the line. They'll collect it, and Vitriol can then send the ball back at your team, hopefully to Midas. Keeping VKat around Midas, or a ball carrier is a fantastic deterrent, as he can eat most players very quickly after a condition is applied. Remember, with her billion inches of threat, you're going to have to play around it. And, as a final note, Alchs are a race to 8 on a VKat team, and you're trying to force 1 of 2 win conditions, which can be a huge pressure on a Fillet team. Hope this helps!

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19 hours ago, burroboskov said:

Have you missed Calculus with Smoke? That the only reason I'm debating keeping her in currently. Crucible can be annoying, but Calculus feels more consistent, especially in a Smoke line up.

Also, Flask or Naja? :P I can never decide!

I don't usually play smoke because Midas is a thing. To be honest 

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37 minutes ago, Poetica said:

I don't usually play smoke because Midas is a thing. To be honest 

Fair enough. But it implies that you rate Crucible more valuable for your Midas games then Calculus? I know it really comes down to 2 of the 3 C's (Calc, Cruc, and Comp), but I feel like Comp is necessary in the 9, if only as a deterrent. 

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On 12/19/2016 at 8:24 PM, daner0023 said:

Of course this needs major testing, but these choices indicate who I would lean towards in these matchups.

Brewers 

Tapper: Midas (Hooper & Stoker would affect choice)

Esters: Midas

 

Fishermen

Corsair: Midas

Shark: Smoke

 

 

As a brewers/ fish player i am a little curious about these picks. Corsair with 2 inch galore should cause midas a problem as well as the crazy ball control he has. Shark plays the quick and dirty goal game which idk if smoke can keep up with, where as Midas has a better chance. Tapper would much rather see midas across the way imo because with the right lineup, the entire brewers team could be on fire and slowed even more against smoke. Smoke shines in the late game almost as much as the brewers team does. Also if Brewers are spending all of their momentum clearing conditions, that means that they are not putting up as many heroics.

 

Just my 2 cent 

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