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Cole

The curious case of... Vileswarm?

48 posts in this topic

So, apparently I am unable to get him to work. Dirge seems to do much more for me. Singled out, Assist for Silence and Cosset... the oonly thing he ever did to me was 15 damage when the opponent kicked him into my ranks and made him explode. Which actually lost me the game.

Aside from making me lose the game he just strolls around and... does nothing, really. 

Enlighten me. What's his purpose. I am apparently not intelligent enough to make him work.

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4 hours ago, CaerSidis said:

Feel the same. ..he miss a buff for vet graves. .. Bad pairing imo

It's the fact that his ability to do work relies on vGraves using a momentum to use a heroic so the rat can do something useful. Also after playing the new Mascot rules with Flask I noticed how much of a liability that explosion can be if you are playing against someone like Scalpel.

 

Scalpel used her 1dmg/push/dodges to place him in the middle of my team while killing him then after placing him proper she started selecting the 2/3 damage choices and then after she took him out she healed the damage it did to her then Second winded away from that mess.

 

Seriously painful and also really cool to watch

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I still haven't fielded v Graves and Vileswarm yet because I couldn't figure out how to use them well. 

That Scalpel story sounds amazing BTW. 

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I have played them twice, once into Vet Rage and once into Tapper. Very similar results, Vet Graves really isn't where I wanted to put much influence in a Scalpel lineup(really liking updated S1Graves BTW), and the rat was a similar situation. You really telegraph the attack when you place an influence on swarm, and to tell the truth it just isn't that effective. I had an ideal situation against Stave, wrapping to 3 full playbooks on the charge against kd ganged up Stave. After the heroic and his tough hide, I ended up doing like 9 damage and 3 momentum. Next activation Friday flies across the field and smokes the rat which does significant damage to Graves leaving me hurting. I won the game, but only after overcoming the swarm hurdle, not due to any help it gave me... And that was an ideal situation. Seems like I would always want a faster, harder to hit mascot with more impactful abilities (even after dark doubts changes). I have certainly been wrong in the past and would love to see some success stories.

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With the rules changes in Season 3, I think we take the hardest hit.  Our gimmick of getting our Mascots back, and being able to play activation attrition is now shared with everyone else.  The actual mascots themselves, aside from their ability to return to the middle of the pitch, aren't amazing.  I've always liked Dirge for his movement, but Vileswarm does seem very so-so.

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I am sure that Morticians will be fine in S3, as will all guilds in my opinion, but I would be happily surprised to see compelling cases made for Vileswarm and/or Veteran Graves. Regular Graves looks pretty interesting now though, so there is always that.

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Although Tooled Up is very useful the KD + Gravedigger result is potentially on a similar value as it allows access to higher playbook results and the extra VP could be crucial. 

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If we compare the two :

- Graves is 4+, Def 1 vs vGraves at 3+, Def 2. Pretty equal here...

- Tooled up at the cost of 1 inf vs Packmaster at the cost of 1 MP. By far, Graves is far more useful here...

- Graves w/ a TAC 6 playbook vs vGraves w/ a TAC 5 playbook. Overall, vGrave's seem more appealing, but is probably overshadowed by the far, FAR easier T on Graves (column 1 instead of 3 on TAC6 vs TAC5...)

Overall, I can't quite see a use for vGraves, even with Creation, which is now pretty much equal to:

- Spend 1 MP now instead of next turn for the mascot to be back in play at full health... Besides, that 1 MP heals only 3 HP instead of 4. The one advantage is that if Vileswarm hasn't activated yet he grants an extra activation...

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I basically was playing the swarm while testing out vGraves who I really like. While telegraphed, I was able to pull of Packmaster fairly regularly.

Since I totally misread the Tournament 9 rules in a rules thread and kinda botched my advice over there, I for now don't really see myself taking vGraves over Graves and thus have no real use for the rats.

While the concept of a 2 Take Out / 1 Goal team with Casket and vGraves is kinda fun, it looses a lot of viability withTooled Up being Guild exclusive, thus lessening Rage's impact in that kinda line up.

We'll see if any of the new models might change both their viability.

 

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2 hours ago, DasLeo said:

I basically was playing the swarm while testing out vGraves who I really like. While telegraphed, I was able to pull of Packmaster fairly regularly.

Since I totally misread the Tournament 9 rules in a rules thread and kinda botched my advice over there, I for now don't really see myself taking vGraves over Graves and thus have no real use for the rats.

While the concept of a 2 Take Out / 1 Goal team with Casket and vGraves is kinda fun, it looses a lot of viability withTooled Up being Guild exclusive, thus lessening Rage's impact in that kinda line up.

We'll see if any of the new models might change both their viability.

Ok, something went wrong in the quoting. Happens to me a lot in the past. xD
I don't intend to use Rage. I'd rather go Cosset/Dirge combo with Casket. Really want to try out that 5VP thing and make it a regular thing I want to do in combination with Silences Shutout.

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I've had good experiences with VGraves and Vileswarm.

The swarm is great for giving Graves the damage assist (5 dmg packmastered wrap charge - we've gone the rounds on this one), or for pushing opponents around.

Also, with the large base, he's better at crowding out that smaller models.

If you can't figure him out, focus on the crowd out and the pushes... see what happens.

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We should all be pleased and relieved that Vileswarm isn't belaboured by a clunky counter-charge rule that only works when he's within 4" of vGraves.

Except that would have been awesome.

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Both our mascots are pretty weak really, I think I need to try Vileswarm along with Obulus and new affordable misdirection before I write off Vileswarm as my least valued. The loss of the inf to the other team is the main sting obviously, the cheap charge is just the icing.

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I could just be completely wrong with 0 games under my belt for season 3, but fromy what I was looking at, V.Graves heroic was just extra, but Vileswarms biggest asset would be it's Rabid Animal ability and pushes. i rather like the idea of charging a model, Rabid Animal into them and pretty much shut them down. and then sit there waiting to explode if they get attacked. Again, just theory crafting, but I don't like the bird as a model. So I'm happily stuck with the rats.

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The fact that it takes 2 Vileswam explosions for the opponent to get the 2VP they used to get... and really 4 explosions before it really is much worse than before (unless the opponent has a way to make up the 1VP) makes them great in my book. 

And all the Rodents go bang... all the rodents go bang bang bang.

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Dirge makes the enemy lose 2 MP when he dies, has singled out, and when using Vileswarm for crowded out, the enemy will simply kill him and damake your models, rather than his. I tried him several times, and that has always been what happened. Either I used him as useless harassment piece, crowded out with him which made  him explode in my ranks, or he got pushed into my ranks and exploded in my ranks. 

Glad some people got use out of him, but he's too easy of a target. Looking at Flask and Mainspring, they both are better armored, and all in all safer than him. Not that I want to really compare, but to be fair. Vileswarm is an easy takeout. There is no overinvolvement. I find he brings nothing to the Morts that suits their playstyle. :/ 

Oh well, I like the model!

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I don't like Vileswarm that much, but I would say if you use him, use him as a missile to disrupt. I don't think he is meant to gang up or take out or anything like that. He is meant for one play. The one you get off with vGraves and then send him across the pitch to someone who is looking to score, or charge, or is dropping AOE's and you can hopefully pull off rabid animal and some damage to get the other player thinking. Vileswarm is completely different than Dirge is. You want Dirge to get in there and possibly even die, while Vileswarm you keep him close until you need to keep someone else at bay.

I think the bigger issue is I don't like vGraves that much, and when you "need" to take both that's two spots that could be Cosset and Dirge where I pulled off close to 20 damage last night.

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I think in Granite we finally have a viable target for Vileswarm! Charge in, stay an inch away, use the double push and Rabid Animal! :3

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I've been using Vileswarm a bit lately. I think he's the less bad of out two. 

He's a 40mm base so it's a nice range for crowd outs.  His initial charge is solid and he's tough enough to take out. 

Vs a team with a strong ranged game, he a risk. At that point, I'll just move him away from my team. 

1 inf charge on a decent 3 long playbook is pretty good. 

Would never run him with vgraves. I think pumping legitimate resources into him is a trap. 1 inf a turn (if that once a scrum starts) seems solid. 

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Has anyone pulled off the rat bomb trick by having it on the far side of a group of opponents that Ghast hits with an "unmasking " taking the last 3 JP off Vileswarm and have him add to the carnage?

 It was suggested as a tactic when we first saw his card and I have not heard of it since. 

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10 hours ago, The Old Buzzard said:

Has anyone pulled off the rat bomb trick by having it on the far side of a group of opponents that Ghast hits with an "unmasking " taking the last 3 JP off Vileswarm and have him add to the carnage?

 It was suggested as a tactic when we first saw his card and I have not heard of it since. 

No but it's something I'm happy to do. Ditto with Graves and scything blow.

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6 hours ago, Mattyg2787 said:

No but it's something I'm happy to do. Ditto with Graves and scything blow.

The advantage with Ghast is that he can push the swarm away before killing it so avoid being hit himself. 

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17 minutes ago, Csjarrat said:

I'd be tempted to team him up and go mascot hunting with v graves. Nice easy two points rather than a normal 1vp

It's a trap. Vindictive is humans only so not against mascots. 

Means you commit two models to try and get normal points. Original Graves can kill a mascot Solo. 

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