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Totes McAwesome

Stave - moan about him here not under boar thread.

152 posts in this topic

I'm pretty sure if he doesn't receive any changes many a brewers will be drowning sorrows in some pints. Without some changes the fat man is going to continue to ride the pine.

I'm actually a bit worried overall for the Brewers in general. The changes to Stoker were well done and needed. He went from underpowered to on par with Hopper and Spigot. Tapper got a mixture of tweaks and I think he is basically at the same power level (although less able to straight up murder stuff due to old jakes changes). The changes to Tower massively undercut our ability to go into Masons as it neuters KD. Changes to Meathook (defensive debuff, more influence, etc.) and Boar (just nasty vs. our low defenses) seem disproportionately effective against Brewers. Hopefully the season 3 changes bring some surprises our way. Right now I feel like the spoiled changes have dropped us lower in terms of competitiveness. Lowering playbooks across the board also is taking away one of our primary shticks.

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24 minutes ago, wrenwood said:

I'm pretty sure if he doesn't receive any changes many a brewers will be drowning sorrows in some pints. Without some changes the fat man is going to continue to ride the pine.

I'm actually a bit worried overall for the Brewers in general. The changes to Stoker were well done and needed. He went from underpowered to on par with Hopper and Spigot. Tapper got a mixture of tweaks and I think he is basically at the same power level (although less able to straight up murder stuff due to old jakes changes). The changes to Tower massively undercut our ability to go into Masons as it neuters KD. Changes to Meathook (defensive debuff, more influence, etc.) and Boar (just nasty vs. our low defenses) seem disproportionately effective against Brewers. Hopefully the season 3 changes bring some surprises our way. Right now I feel like the spoiled changes have dropped us lower in terms of competitiveness. Lowering playbooks across the board also is taking away one of our primary shticks.

Generally agree. Everything I've seen so far effects my line ups negatively, with the exception that I might play Stoker more. Really hope the rest of the cards have awesome things on them.

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All the main culprits have either received or seem in line for a boost- and rightly so:

boar, season 1 harmony, tower, meathook, Stoker, Harry the hat, graves all improved.

katelyst 1, bonesaw, mercury assumed so (we shall see)

Already solid choices like seenah and cosset buffed too

all of the above make sense to me- just shocked Stave isn't in the buff party. Which, as the only NAKED def 2 player, he should be!!

He's not even retained parity either- if you picked Stoker before you might pick stave because of tactical advice but that's gone!!

I completely trust SF and as said believe all the other changes seem like the right ones but..... poor stave! 

 

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Any idea if there are any Core Rule changes that might make Stave's "status-quo" rules more understandable?

At the moment, his main weakness is directly related to the way momentum is currently generated during a game. Any change to that mechanic might mitigate Stave's penchant for being a momentum farm in certain situations.

Given changes to other models (i.e. Stoker), it's a challenge to envision a scenario where Stave's status as a "situational-at-best" pick is changed. In other words, what I'm wonder is whether Steamforged, in the case of Stave, missed the mark in addressing the Never-Take/Always-Take dichotomy they specifically desired to eliminate? 

This is all wishful thinking, I know. But I'm trying to see silver-lining. Help me see the silver-lining, brothers and sisters!

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2 minutes ago, Tankard said:

Any idea if there are any Core Rule changes that might make Stave's "status-quo" rules more understandable?

At the moment, his main weakness is directly related to the way momentum is currently generated during a game. Any change to that mechanic might mitigate Stave's penchant for being a momentum farm in certain situations.

Given changes to other models (i.e. Stoker), it's a challenge to envision a scenario where Stave's status as a "situational-at-best" pick is changed. In other words, what I'm wonder is whether Steamforged, in the case of Stave, missed the mark in addressing the Never-Take/Always-Take dichotomy they specifically desired to eliminate? 

This is all wishful thinking, I know. But I'm trying to see silver-lining. Help me see the silver-lining, brothers and sisters!

Well if kicking he gets a momentum to counter attack with before a Brewers activation....might help (very doubtful).

maybe the Brewers rookie will help him in ways we cannot yet imagine.

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3 minutes ago, Skinnydookie said:

Well if kicking he gets a momentum to counter attack with before a Brewers activation....might help (very doubtful).

maybe the Brewers rookie will help him in ways we cannot yet imagine.

Hope restored :)

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To be fair it would have to be a significant buff from the rookie, but it is possible. I understand that lob barrel is super powerful,  but only if it works. I used Stave the other day against Masons, so surely the perfect opponent. .. right up to the point where lob barrel failed against mallet and decimate. which then cost me initiative for the next 2 turns. singled out on a KD stave just allowed the masons to fill there boots with momentum. Then allowing the rest of the team to heal, counter and defensive stance all day long.

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24 minutes ago, Skinnydookie said:

Well if kicking he gets a momentum to counter attack with before a Brewers activation....might help (very doubtful).

maybe the Brewers rookie will help him in ways we cannot yet imagine.

With how rules for initiative are laid out, we do get momentum if we activate second in the turn. That means an opponent attacking Stave first turn is a bad move with his 1 success knockdown

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There is a massive difference between Boar and Stave being Def 2+. Boar has to get into melee to do anything. Stave can be a fair distance away, and behind other players...

4 minutes ago, TheDrunkenMald said:

With how rules for initiative are laid out, we do get momentum if we activate second in the turn. That means an opponent attacking Stave first turn is a bad move with his 1 success knockdown

There is no initiative roll on the first turn.

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41 minutes ago, Tankard said:

Any idea if there are any Core Rule changes that might make Stave's "status-quo" rules more understandable?

At the moment, his main weakness is directly related to the way momentum is currently generated during a game. Any change to that mechanic might mitigate Stave's penchant for being a momentum farm in certain situations.

Given changes to other models (i.e. Stoker), it's a challenge to envision a scenario where Stave's status as a "situational-at-best" pick is changed. In other words, what I'm wonder is whether Steamforged, in the case of Stave, missed the mark in addressing the Never-Take/Always-Take dichotomy they specifically desired to eliminate? 

This is all wishful thinking, I know. But I'm trying to see silver-lining. Help me see the silver-lining, brothers and sisters!

I can't imagine momentum generation changing. One game wide change I am really hoping is to limit union models to one per lineup. More than any other team (except Hunters) we gain very little from Union. Many of our buffs are already guild only or what guild models we have access to overlap with in-faction options. Compare that to Butchers/Alchemists etc. that may run three union models to exploit synergies.

I think that SF is overvaluing KD. In the right circumstances it is devastating . . . but it can be eliminated through momentum or just by standing up. Outside of Tapper (or True Grit Hooper) we also need ganging up bonuses or a charge to reliable get that 3 column success against a 3/1 or 4/0. We are running normally only two folks with 2" in any list (Tapper/Hooper, or maybe Mash/Hooper in an Esthers linup) so it isn't that common to keep players at 2" and KD. With our low defenses it is very easy to get large amounts of momentum off of us. As soon as we are a bit behind on the momentum race KD becomes much less effective. Since they overvalue KD they see Stave as very powerful, which he clearly isn't. Now make Stave a battery like Silence(3/4 or 3/3) and I think he sees play. On turns he can get off a barrel toss he uses that tool. On other turns he can still provide influence without being a giant liability.

 

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I am trying to limit my pre-judgement at the minute. As until we see all that changes we don't have the full picture. Mash may just save it at the end by becoming a 2/4 influence player. But alas poor stave I feel will unfortunately become a paper weight for me.

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I am still in the wait and see crowd.

On his own, Stave struggles to make line ups, but there may be some synergies that we have not yet seen.

And I would not be too worried about the relative competiveness of the Brewers, as they are half of the new box set. The track record from SF has been pretty much on point with the most egregious examples of imblance still only being a couple of percentage points off the norm.

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"If my round 1 opponent had taken Stave, he could have won" - Jordan Nach, US National Champion and All-Around Paragon of Modesty

Basically Stave has a solid place in the competitive meta, maybe not solidly as a starting 6 against every guild, but probably has a place in your 9. He has some significant weaknesses with 1/3 and 2+/0, but he also has Lob Barrel.

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32 minutes ago, FearLord said:

There is a massive difference between Boar and Stave being Def 2+. Boar has to get into melee to do anything. Stave can be a fair distance away, and behind other players...

There is no initiative roll on the first turn.

I agree with the above. I'm still pretty new to Brewers but have had 20 something games and Stave makes most of my teams. Stave isn't meant to be in the front lines and I think I'm yet to have him taken out. His positioning seems key.

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Given what we know about the new initiative mechanic, I think this might have repurposed Stave. With either choosing or being forced to go second in a turn, Stave can use  the momentum and high TAC to keep himself from being a pin cushion.

Defensively on a counter attack he's Knockdown on one, Push on three, Double Push on 4. all and all that's not bad with a TAC 6 model.

If your opponent does not attack Stave you can activate him to do a barrel lob with Explosive Brew, doing 2 Damage to enemy models hit, repositioning enemies, and knocking them down. 

 

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Ranged Repositioning and Knocked down - Lob Barrel is insane. I like Stave right now and i am going to like him S3. He is definitily more than just "walking enemy Momentum".

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Yup he definitely has game, but he also is the player in guild who most polarises opinion. my own personal view is that he is to much of a liability for me to take competitively. lob barrel has to short a range for me to be able to keep him away from the front line. But seeing as he is staying as he is I will just have to figure out how to use him.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Antoine said:

Who knows another not yet spoiled player may give him +1 def or +1 armour while within a certain distance.

If this happens I want the character to be a cook carrying extra booze, pretzels, or haggis.

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I actually enjoyed bombing the Boar thread. The butchers players seem excited, as they should, but it defenitely seemed strange to me that they ignored stave and just straight up added DEF to boar.  That said, DEF3 won't stop me from farming off of him. 

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2 minutes ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

I actually enjoyed bombing the Boar thread. The butchers players seem excited, as they should, but it defenitely seemed strange to me that they ignored stave and just straight up added DEF to boar.  That said, DEF3 won't stop me from farming off of him. 

Your right it was fun. but I was a little worried that we where coming across as just sulking that are toys hadn''t received the same love. who knows once season 3 drops maybe shank, boiler and brisket will of been dialled down and you can go bomb again.

I would really like to hear a design explanation of why boar got a buff but Stave was left the same. my main frustration is that as it stands a faction that was supposed to be the hardest hitting but didn't like to take a punch. Is now in a position where there lowest defence is are average and at present they hit harder than before. but again I mist emphasise that until we see the rest other butchers we don't know how relevant it is.

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I think Stave scales with skill more than just about any other player in the game as he is currently. Boars buffs were needed, and I still think he's a liability after he activates since it could be a while before he gets to heal and even from a main fish perspective he's fairly easy to knock out. Once out it could be a while before he threatens anyone again.

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36 minutes ago, Ik-tornado said:

I think Stave scales with skill more than just about any other player in the game as he is currently. Boars buffs were needed, and I still think he's a liability after he activates since it could be a while before he gets to heal and even from a main fish perspective he's fairly easy to knock out. Once out it could be a while before he threatens anyone again.

I don't think scale is the right word. On a player skill scale level 1-10, I don't think he's going to be with gambling with til like 7.

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